Fizzled out?

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kyzrex
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Re: Fizzled out?

Postby kyzrex » Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:08 am

Except that recruiting has basically come to a standstill. Coaches can’t travel. Players can’t make visits. The open gyms are closed. Contact is basically only through phone and internet. So it’s going to be hard for coaches to evaluate the players and for the players to evaluate the universities they might be considering transferring to.
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thecoach
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Re: Fizzled out?

Postby thecoach » Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:59 am

Recruiting isn't the part i'm talking about. It's player jumping ship. When guys get away from school and the team environment, stuff tends to happen. If you are a good, prospect they're will be a landing spot for you. All teams have the same issue to deal with, but it will be interesting to watch if this goes on for an extended period what shakes out. Same with coaches getting canned. I suspect that continues as always, but the abrupt end to the season has put that in motion as well.
edgecliff hall
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Re: Fizzled out?

Postby edgecliff hall » Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:14 pm

Coach, you're saying anything can happen.
kyzrex
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Re: Fizzled out?

Postby kyzrex » Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:58 pm

thecoach wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:59 am
Recruiting isn't the part i'm talking about. It's player jumping ship. When guys get away from school and the team environment, stuff tends to happen. If you are a good, prospect they're will be a landing spot for you. All teams have the same issue to deal with, but it will be interesting to watch if this goes on for an extended period what shakes out. Same with coaches getting canned. I suspect that continues as always, but the abrupt end to the season has put that in motion as well.
What, you don’t think that coaches recruit transfers too? Transfers don’t just pick a school and walk-on. Coaches meet with them and offer them a spot and a scholarship. And the players don’t pick a school without visiting either. That’s what entering the transfer portal is all about. It gives coaches a chance to meet with them and gives the players a chance to visit other schools. Right now, nothing like that can happen in a lot of places. Many schools are not allowing the coaches to travel and most people don’t even want to if it involves flying. The only thing that MIGHT happen is we see some kids that went far away for school might decide to transfer back to a school that is in their hometown, just because they CAN visit it easily.
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thecoach
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Re: Fizzled out?

Postby thecoach » Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:00 pm

edgecliff hall wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:14 pm
Coach, you're saying anything can happen.
Exactly right. I've read a number of places where the Ncaa may blanket waive the transfer year sit out which obviously will have some bearing. It's a critical time of the year and there will be winners and losers.
JTG
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Re: Fizzled out?

Postby JTG » Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:13 am

If the transfer waiver occurs I could see Scruggs and Marshall @ Louisville.
Anti-Homer
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Re: Fizzled out?

Postby Anti-Homer » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:08 pm

kyzrex wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:30 am
Anti-Homer wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:26 pm


I wonder why they were voted as a consensus Top 25 team during the preseason by most of the rags? I wonder why 247Sports rated the team composite as the most talented based on their player evaluations? I wonder why they were voted to finish 3rd in the best league in the country? I wonder why they had the most players along with Nova on the All BE teams, All BE rookies?
NC was ranked preseason #14. Mich. St. was ranked #1 by many. UD and SDSU weren’t even mentioned. Polls are worthless, especially preseason polls. All-star picks aren’t worth much more.

It’s a TEAM game....individual plaudits mean nothing. DWest was national player of the year on TEAMS that were not as successful as other teams that had no all-stars.

Overall, this team was merely good, not great. It had some real deficiencies. It lacked some pieces that great teams have. Even it’s all star players were not complete players. Can’t really say that Marshall has a consistently good outside game, but he is a great driver. Jones is a great rebounder, but not really a good low post scorer and is absolutely horrible from 5 ft out and beyond. The freshman played a bigger role on this team than they would have on virtually any other team in the league, but that doesn’t mean that they are future league all-stars. This team was not UN-talented, but it certainly didn’t have great ALL-ROUND talent either.

Agree to COMPLETELY disagree. Preseason polls are accurate over a large sample, and the top ten usually end up in the poll, or near the top 25 at year's end, and the others mainly stay in the top 50. Reference the Top 25 preseason poll below. Pretty damn accurate, especially the top 10 teams. Memphis would probably also be there, if their center wasn't ruled ineligible. Most of the bolded teams are top 50 teams, with the exception of a couple.

Michigan State (60) 1,619 32-7
2 Kentucky (2) 1,497 30-7
3 Kansas (3) 1,457 26-10
4 Duke 1,399 32-6
5 Louisville 1,386 20-14
6 Florida 1,313 20-16
7 Maryland 1,134 23-11
8 Gonzaga 1,096 33-4
9 North Carolina 1,060 29-7
10 Villanova 1,048 26-10
11 Virginia 1,007 35-3
12 Seton Hall 863 20-14
13 Texas Tech 837 31-7
14 Memphis 773 22-14
15 Oregon 742 25-13
16 Baylor 523 20-14
17 Utah State 491 28-7
18 Ohio State 407 20-15
19 Xavier 356 19-16
20 Saint Mary's (Cal) 330 22-12
21 Arizona 265 17-15
22 LSU 234 28-7
23 Purdue
230 26-10
24 Auburn 210 30-10
25 VCU


As far as individual picks go, I couldn't disagree more, and think your premise is completely flawed, because individual awards are given in the context of their performance as a teammate, in a team game. Can you name anyone on any all conference team in any league who isn't one of the top 10 players in their conference? It is based on their body of work throughout the year, and again, in the context of their performance with the rest of the team, not in a one on one game. The coaches make the selections, so I can't think of a more accurate way to assess. I also think it ain't a coincidence that many of the commentators doing X games, or those in studio are very puzzled by X's records, inconsistent play, and in game strategy by TS.

I think your take on West being the Nat'l Player of the Year, and not being on X's best team is irrelevant, because the outcome is also predicated on his teammates and coaches, and not just his play. It seems to imply that he must not have deserved the award or that being deemed the best player is meaningless. I don't think there's any doubt he was the best player in cbb. I'll take my chances against any other team if it had five players with West's ability. To my knowledge, D Wade, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Kawhi Leonard, Obi Harris,James Harden, Larry Bird and scores of other greats didn't win the NC Championship or even go to the FF. However, I'm pretty sure they were the greatest players in the history of their programs.

Also, I'm too lazy to look it up, but I would venture to guess that at least 50% of the Nat'l Players of the year in cbb in the last three decades had a majority consensus, and if not, were universally considered a top 3 player. Lastly, there is a prime example close to home. I have been voted a Top Five Moderator in three consecutive years, and Rookie Moderator of the year in my first. Any questions? Yea, I thought so.

As usual, I will end on a unifying note. I do agree with your assertion that "Overall, this team was merely good, not great." That's a combination of execution, coaching, and talent to an extent. Not that it was lacking, but it was an awkward mix. However, there were enough pieces to run any semblance of an offense, as opposed to giving Marshall the ball on 75% of the time, and give him the option to drive, shoot, or pass. Not a good idea with a player handicapped with poor decision making.
kyzrex
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Re: Fizzled out?

Postby kyzrex » Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:31 am

My point was/is that pre-season polls determine nothing...nothing. They only PREDICT what is EXPECTED to happen. There are examples every year of teams that were vastly overrated and teams that were vastly underrated. It’s pretty easy, based on past performances and history, to predict Kentucky, Duke, and others as top-10/20 teams every year. But as is shown every year, that is not a guarantee of success. Xavier was highly ranked in most preseason polls, but I think it’s safe to say that they where OVER ranked. The proof of their abilities is not in what was expected, it’s in what they accomplished. They finished as a top 50 team out of 300+ college BB teams according to the NET rankings. Not bad, but not excellent either. Preseason hype and rankings led us to expect more, but what happened over the course of 3 months of actual games is a much better gauge of true abilities than any preseason poll.



I also said that the team was not UN-talented, but tried to point out that even the all-league players that Xavier had this past year are not COMPLETE players. They all had areas they were not very good at. Unfortunately for Xavier, the areas where the all-star players are deficient where also the areas that others could not pick up the slack.....outside shooting and low post scoring being prime examples. You can throw free throw shooting in there too.
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skyhops
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Re: Fizzled out?

Postby skyhops » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:57 am

I think that you could probably consider Naji as more of a complete player than Bluiett considering his combined offensive and defensive ability (minus shooting), so that argument really doesn't work. You probably agree with Steele when he would say at halftime that the score and the way they played doesn't really matter even though they won every game that they had the lead at halftime. We won't have to worry about a strong preseason ranking next year, so we won't have that excuse. I voted for Muskieman as the most improved Mod in 18-19 and the others that decided to lift my six month ban for passing along factual info.
kyzrex
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Re: Fizzled out?

Postby kyzrex » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:56 am

I would consider Naji a more complete all round player than Bluiett, but that doesn’t mean that I would consider him a complete player, so what’s your point? That neither was a great all-round player? I would agree to that. I think that the fact that both of them were multiple time all-league players only shows that one doesn’t need to be a great all round player to be all-league. Which was my point form the beginning. Naji and Jones were both great enough in certain areas that the areas where they fall short are often overlooked. This is not a knock on them, it’s a knock on those that fail to see those shortcomings. On those that are blinded by their excellence in one area to their deficiencies in other areas. The really good players are those that may not be great anywhere, but also aren’t poor anywhere. The really great players are great in many areas, and good in all the rest. Not every all league player is a “great” player.

The fact that the team didn’t lose any 1/2 time leads doesn’t prove anything one way or the other either. It’s a statistical anomaly, nothing more, as any statistician could tell you.
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