Xavier football

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nickgyp
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Xavier football

Postby nickgyp » Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:34 pm

Yesterday, I noticed talk on Twitter about Xavier football. Turned to XavierHoops and MusketeerReport. Serious talk of non-scholarship football, Intriguing. From my 2-cent post on XavierHoops earlier today:

Actually, club football got through a number of years with some entertaining games. Problem was the students had to pay to play; the number of players weren't sufficient to deal with injuries. I always enjoyed to attending games at Corcoran Field back in the days of Danny Abramowicz, Carroll Williams, Steve Bailey, Jim Louder, Denny Caponi and others. Autumns at Xavier have never been the same since football was dropped in 1973. I attended Xavier when football was dropped and even attempted to walk-on for what would have been my sophomore year. Always thought that dropping to Division 3 football as Dayton did back then would have been a better option.

I had hoped that club football might have morphed into non-scholarship football in the Pioneer Football League where schools like Butler and Dayton have played without harming their basketball programs. Villanova's football program certainly doesn't harm their basketball program (this even after Nova dropped their program only to re-start it very quickly). Schools adding football and /or restarting programs at various levels has been a growing trend:

Article from National Football Foundation & College Hall of Fame:

Last week the National Football Foundation & College Hall of Fame (NFF) highlighted that football remains strong on campuses across the country as the number of four-year colleges and universities from all NCAA divisions, the NAIA and independents offering football currently stands at 774. The total number includes one college football team that will take the field for the first time this season and six additional programs that will take to the gridiron in the coming years. (Media release courtesy of the National Football Foundation & College Hall of Fame.)

Since 1978 when the NCAA changed its method for tracking attendance figures, the number of schools playing NCAA football (FBS, FCS, DII and DIII) has steadily increased by 181 schools from 484 in 1978 to 665 in 2021. Adding NAIA and independent schools playing football and schools launching programs in the coming years, there are now 774 four-year colleges and universities offering students an opportunity to play college football...

”No other sport contributes more to the vibrancy of a college campus than football, and we are very pleased to highlight those schools that have added our great game,” said NFF President & CEO Steve Hatchell. “University and college presidents clearly see the value of having programs on their campuses, and we applaud them for understanding the role football can play in the educational experience of all their students.

The rationale for adding football varies at each institution, and all of the decision makers, who helped develop a plan for launching a program, explain that an in-depth study played a critical role in finding the right level of play and the proper financial balance. Small colleges may cite increasing enrollment and addressing gender imbalances while larger universities might highlight the role of football in raising the institutionÂ’s profile and its ability to attract research grants. All mention creating a more vibrant on-campus community and connecting with alumni.

"With more than one million high school students playing football, there is plenty of room for expansion of the game at the collegiate level," said NFF Chairman Archie Manning. “Many of these colleges clearly recognize that football can play an important role in encouraging students to continue their educations by enticing them to enroll.”

According to a 2015 study of five small universities published in College Planning & Management by Virginia Wesleyan University President Dr. Scott Miller and former Carlow University (PA) President Dr. Marylouise Fennell, adding sports teams and facilities, especially football and marching bands, can fuel an enrollment boost. The study found that each of the five institutions experienced a six-year increase of 26 percent or more, with one school doubling its enrollment during that period...

You can read more of this story at: https://footballfoundation.org/news/...-football.aspx

I have no idea how the numbers would work for Xavier especially with Title IX considerations but an argument can be made that non-scholarship football doesn't impact legislation and/or female club sports even out the athletic.opportunities.

I fully support the administration exploring the pros and cons of non-scholarship football. It would certainly fill an autumn void that exists on Victory Parkway and I believe basketball success wouldn't be undermined. I would love to see it happen.

FWIW: I am just a little more than a year out from chemo and beam radiation for thyroid cancer. Today I had CT scans of my chest, neck and abdomen. Reads just in: All show me clear of cancer consistent with July PETSCAN at MD Anderson which showed no evidence of cancer.
Scheduled to head to Houston again in January for another PETSCAN. I am blessed!

Finally: Musketeer Madness noted this past summer that Steve Thomas turned 80. Can somebody get his jersey hanging at Cintas?
His 30 ppg. average without a three-point shot in 1964 is one remarkable basketball feat. He was that good!
bat
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Re: Xavier football

Postby bat » Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:47 am

I seldom post, but football at Xavier brings back wonderful memories. Explicitely, the upset victories over Boston College, the trip to Lexington and Xavier´s vixtory over UK, Nippert Stadium and the upsets and loses. One could go on and on. Living in europe and Spain for well over 50 years has only inspired my memories as I watch football and Notre Dame weekly....God bless them. I might also mention the games against Quantico Marines and the season when X won and filled the stadium at the end of a one victory season by inviting thousands of Boy Scouts to enjoy the Corcoran Stadium experience. Non scholarship football is a great idea.

Can´t wait until the first Bball game, but it would be wonderful to see a Muskie football season as well. Go Muskies..
Best to all, Bill Masterson
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muskieman
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Re: Xavier football

Postby muskieman » Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:00 pm

Nick, I am glad to hear about the cancer-free information. As for football, I am skeptical that it can be financially viable. With title IX it appears to be a problem. I'd like to see a feasibility study before I climb on board.
I asked a ref if he could give me a technical foul for thinking bad things about him. He said, of course not. I said, well, I think you stink. And he gave me a technical. You can't trust em.
xaviermuskie2003
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Re: Xavier football

Postby xaviermuskie2003 » Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:50 pm

nickgyp wrote:
Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:34 pm
Yesterday, I noticed talk on Twitter about Xavier football. Turned to XavierHoops and MusketeerReport. Serious talk of non-scholarship football, Intriguing. From my 2-cent post on XavierHoops earlier today:

Actually, club football got through a number of years with some entertaining games. Problem was the students had to pay to play; the number of players weren't sufficient to deal with injuries. I always enjoyed to attending games at Corcoran Field back in the days of Danny Abramowicz, Carroll Williams, Steve Bailey, Jim Louder, Denny Caponi and others. Autumns at Xavier have never been the same since football was dropped in 1973. I attended Xavier when football was dropped and even attempted to walk-on for what would have been my sophomore year. Always thought that dropping to Division 3 football as Dayton did back then would have been a better option.

I had hoped that club football might have morphed into non-scholarship football in the Pioneer Football League where schools like Butler and Dayton have played without harming their basketball programs. Villanova's football program certainly doesn't harm their basketball program (this even after Nova dropped their program only to re-start it very quickly). Schools adding football and /or restarting programs at various levels has been a growing trend:

Article from National Football Foundation & College Hall of Fame:

Last week the National Football Foundation & College Hall of Fame (NFF) highlighted that football remains strong on campuses across the country as the number of four-year colleges and universities from all NCAA divisions, the NAIA and independents offering football currently stands at 774. The total number includes one college football team that will take the field for the first time this season and six additional programs that will take to the gridiron in the coming years. (Media release courtesy of the National Football Foundation & College Hall of Fame.)

Since 1978 when the NCAA changed its method for tracking attendance figures, the number of schools playing NCAA football (FBS, FCS, DII and DIII) has steadily increased by 181 schools from 484 in 1978 to 665 in 2021. Adding NAIA and independent schools playing football and schools launching programs in the coming years, there are now 774 four-year colleges and universities offering students an opportunity to play college football...

”No other sport contributes more to the vibrancy of a college campus than football, and we are very pleased to highlight those schools that have added our great game,” said NFF President & CEO Steve Hatchell. “University and college presidents clearly see the value of having programs on their campuses, and we applaud them for understanding the role football can play in the educational experience of all their students.

The rationale for adding football varies at each institution, and all of the decision makers, who helped develop a plan for launching a program, explain that an in-depth study played a critical role in finding the right level of play and the proper financial balance. Small colleges may cite increasing enrollment and addressing gender imbalances while larger universities might highlight the role of football in raising the institutionÂ’s profile and its ability to attract research grants. All mention creating a more vibrant on-campus community and connecting with alumni.

"With more than one million high school students playing football, there is plenty of room for expansion of the game at the collegiate level," said NFF Chairman Archie Manning. “Many of these colleges clearly recognize that football can play an important role in encouraging students to continue their educations by enticing them to enroll.”

According to a 2015 study of five small universities published in College Planning & Management by Virginia Wesleyan University President Dr. Scott Miller and former Carlow University (PA) President Dr. Marylouise Fennell, adding sports teams and facilities, especially football and marching bands, can fuel an enrollment boost. The study found that each of the five institutions experienced a six-year increase of 26 percent or more, with one school doubling its enrollment during that period...

You can read more of this story at: https://footballfoundation.org/news/...-football.aspx

I have no idea how the numbers would work for Xavier especially with Title IX considerations but an argument can be made that non-scholarship football doesn't impact legislation and/or female club sports even out the athletic.opportunities.

I fully support the administration exploring the pros and cons of non-scholarship football. It would certainly fill an autumn void that exists on Victory Parkway and I believe basketball success wouldn't be undermined. I would love to see it happen.

FWIW: I am just a little more than a year out from chemo and beam radiation for thyroid cancer. Today I had CT scans of my chest, neck and abdomen. Reads just in: All show me clear of cancer consistent with July PETSCAN at MD Anderson which showed no evidence of cancer.
Scheduled to head to Houston again in January for another PETSCAN. I am blessed!

Finally: Musketeer Madness noted this past summer that Steve Thomas turned 80. Can somebody get his jersey hanging at Cintas?
His 30 ppg. average without a three-point shot in 1964 is one remarkable basketball feat. He was that good!
Nick- great news regarding your cancer. Thank you for the update. Stay well and God Bless.
xaviermuskie2003
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:12 am
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Re: Xavier football

Postby xaviermuskie2003 » Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:51 pm

bat wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:47 am
I seldom post, but football at Xavier brings back wonderful memories. Explicitely, the upset victories over Boston College, the trip to Lexington and Xavier´s vixtory over UK, Nippert Stadium and the upsets and loses. One could go on and on. Living in europe and Spain for well over 50 years has only inspired my memories as I watch football and Notre Dame weekly....God bless them. I might also mention the games against Quantico Marines and the season when X won and filled the stadium at the end of a one victory season by inviting thousands of Boy Scouts to enjoy the Corcoran Stadium experience. Non scholarship football is a great idea.

Can´t wait until the first Bball game, but it would be wonderful to see a Muskie football season as well. Go Muskies..
Best to all, Bill Masterson
Great to hear from you again bat. Hope all is well.
bat
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Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:13 am
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Re: Xavier football

Postby bat » Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:32 am

Thanks. I´m hanging in there and just got over the virus. Cést la vie. I certainly hope X wins a National Championship before I leave this world. One last thought: Steve Thomas should definately be honored as a "unique player of his time." Best to all, Bill Masterson (Spain)
nickgyp
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Re: Xavier football

Postby nickgyp » Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:41 pm

Muskieman and 2003: Thank you for the kind words. I am well and enjoyed seeing Free and Claude perform well last night. FT's and 3Pt'ers need work.

As for Title IX, I posted this on Xavier Hoops earlier today:

Xavier '11 questions the application of Title IX to the addition of non-scholarship football at Xavier. As an interested Xavier football fan, I have over the years examined Title IX and its implications for returning football Xavier particularly at the non-scholarship level. I am an attorney albeit inactive after retiring from 35 years as a prosecutor. Even to me, the interpretation of Title IX's application is not entirely clear as '11 points out; however, whether women's club sports count as opportunities for Title IX's purposes is debatable. Litigation might have to resolve such question but, as has been pointed, there hasn't been much litigation history particularly in this regard.

As has also been noted, Title IX seems more concerned with opportunities than actual numbers of participants. The University of New Orleans is now considering football after a couple sets of years playing at the club level. (Xavier's club team defeated the UNO club team at Roger Bacon stadium a decade or so ago.) In 1999, a UNO alum examined Title IX as non-scholarship football. I attach the following not as an exhaustive legal analysis of the issue but only as some serious thought to the question. For the record, I recall having read an Ohio State law professor's examination of the topic but, as of yet, I have been unable to locate it.

/https://www.angelfire.com/la/uno/propos ... r,Football% 20Main%20Page


In significant part, summarized:

Proposal For Non-Scholarship Division I-AA Football at the University of New Orleans

1.
It is well within the capability of the University of New Orleans to bring to UNO students, alumni and the Louisiana sports scene, on-campus Saturday night college football played outdoors on real grass between teams made up of real student athletes in a stadium in which alcoholic beverages can be sold. College football the way it was meant to be played, the way it used to be played, the way it still is played on many campuses around the country.
The University of New Orleans can and should establish a Division I-AA non-scholarship football program on the campus of the University of New Orleans...
4.
What about Title IX?

Title IX will not be an obstacle to UNO football, financially or otherwise. In fact it may even be helpful.
In order to address the Title IX issue, an understanding of Title IX and UNO's responsibilities under same, once football is established is required. Please see Cohen v Brown University 991 F 2d 888, 893-898 (1st Cir. 1993) in which the First Circuit Court of Appeals discusses the history, scope, statutory and regulatory framework of Title IX (pg. 25).
The first point to be made is that equal opportunity to participate lies at the core of Title IX's purpose. Equality of expenditure and equality in numbers is not required (Cohen pg. 896 note 9, pg. 897). Title IX does not mandate strict numerical equality between the gender balance of a college’s athletic program and the gender balance of its student body (Cohen pg. 894). What it does mandate is that a university effectively accommodate the interests and abilities of members of both sexes (Cohen pg. 896-897).
The key point to understand is that there is a three - prong test under which UNO must meet at least one of the three prongs in order to adhere to Title IX requirements. That test is as follows:
(1)Whether intercollegiate level participation opportunities for male and female students are provided in numbers substantially proportionate to their respective enrollments; or


(2)Where the members of one sex have been and are underrepresented among the intercollegiate athletes, whether the institution can show a history and continuing practice of program expansion which is demonstrably responsive to the developing interest and abilities of the members of that sex; or
(3)Where the members of one sex, are underrepresented among intercollegiate athletes, and the institution cannot show a continuing practice of program expansion such as that cited above, whether it can be demonstrated that the interests and abilities of the members of that sex have been fully and effectively accommodated by the present program (pg. 897 Cohen).
It is unlikely that the athletic programs of many co-educational universities reflect the gender balance of their student bodies. Moreover, given economic constraints, it is difficult for universities to expand athletic opportunities today. As a result, more often than not, schools meet the above test by satisfying the interests and abilities of the underrepresented gender, i.e. by meeting the third prong of the test. Furthermore, even when male athletic opportunities outnumber female athletic opportunities, and a university has not met the first prong (substantial statistical proportionality) or the second prong (continuing program expansion), the mere fact that there are some female students interested in a sport does not ipso facto require the school to provide a varsity team in order to comply with the third prong. Rather, the institution can satisfy the third prong by insuring participatory opportunities at the intercollegiate level when, and to the extent that, there is sufficient interest and ability among the members of the excluded sex to sustain a viable team and a reasonable expectation of intercollegiate competition for that team (Cohen pg.. 898).
It should also be pointed out that the burden of proof is not on the university to prove that it has met at least one of the three prongs of this test. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff to show that a university has not met at least one of the three prongs of the accommodation test. (Cohen pg. 903-904, see also Roberts v. Colorado State Board of Agriculture 998 F 2d 824 (10th Cir. 1993), pg.831). Moreover, this burden is heavier on plaintiffs who want to establish a new team than it would be on plaintiffs who are on an existing team which has been eliminated (Cohen pg. 904, Roberts pg.832).

6
The bottom line is that the purpose of Title IX is to ensure equal opportunity to participate. It does not require equality of expenditure or equality in numbers. It requires only that a university effectively accommodate the interests and abilities of the members of both sexes.
"...f a school has a student body in which one sex is demonstrably less interested in athletics, Title IX does not require that the school create teams for, or rain money upon otherwise disinterested students; rather, the third benchmark is satisfied if the underrepresented sex's discernable interests are fully and effectively accommodated." (pg. 898 Cohen).
Norma V. Cantu, Assistant Secretary for Civil Rights, Department of Education recently wrote in the July 30, 1999 issue of the Wall Street Journal:
"...[M]ore than two thirds of the schools reviewed by the OCR complied with Title IX by showing that they had a history and continuing practice of expanding opportunities for the underrepresented sex, or by insuring that the interests and abilities of women are fully met. In other words, if women's underrepresentation is due to lack of interest, not discrimination, a school does not have to create additional opportunities for women. A college or university can comply with Title IX even if men receive significantly more athletic opportunities than women."...
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muskieman
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Re: Xavier football

Postby muskieman » Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:25 pm

Thanks for the Title IX info and comments. I admit I am baffled by the title.

As for the game if you take away Colby's 1-6 from the foul line the rest of the players shot 80%. As for the three-point shooting I'd take Xs first-half percentage and would rather have the other team shoot our second half percentage
I asked a ref if he could give me a technical foul for thinking bad things about him. He said, of course not. I said, well, I think you stink. And he gave me a technical. You can't trust em.

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